Better brakes?

[biosed]

Just past 8k KMs (5000 miles for the yanks) and I find the brakes lacking. Would the brembo off the H2 fit/improve? Or is there an cheaper option?

[Rickifumi]

On several occasions I have simply upgraded a bike's discs to stock replacement Brembos, for example their SuperSport rotors with matching pads, and each time noted an improvement. I first tried this with my '92 ZX-11C to remedy the rapidly warping stockers and never had that problem again. Braking feel and power both improved, too.

I am very reluctant to change the hydraulic components of an ABS-equipped brake system (i.e. calipers and master cylinders) because they would be unanalyzed and untested. Swapping discs and pads, especially to stock replacements like these Brembos, seems much less risky.

[Lentz]

I put Brembo calipers and ceramic discs on my Z1000SX and found the ABS to work fine. I can explain why it doesn't make a difference if interested.

[Rickifumi]

ABS controllers are calibrated for parameters like x amount of brake pressure equals x amount of brake torque, and a certain valve cycle time correlates to a specific line pressure response. If non-OE parts changed the brake system's fluid volume, structural stiffness, or how much brake torque is created by x amount of line pressure then the ABS performance may not be as designed. Sure, it will still detect wheel slippage while braking and cycle line pressure in response but I am skeptical about the end result.

[kman0066]

First thing would be establishing what you feel is lacking out of the brakes. Putting some generic stuff below. As you'll see, you can change a lot about the braking system with just brake pads. But to choose the right pads, you'll need to think about what kind you want. I personally prefer a high initial bite with VERY consistent brake feel. For me that means EBC HH pads such as the EPFA pads for street and GPFAX pads for racing. A lot of people prefer progressive pads which start off with much less bite, but get progressively stronger with heat. It's really a personal opinion thing and how you utilize the lever. Without knowing your exact problem, I would bet that starting with brake pads, and then going to an aftermarket master cylinder if still not right would meet your needs.

Dullness to lever feel - Stainless steel brake lines (SX SE already has these)
More or Less force wanted at the lever - Consider an aftermarket master cylinder that allows for the ratio you want.
Intial Bite too little or too much - Aftermarket brake pads
Lack of constant brake feel or Lack of brake progressing (dependent upon desired feel) - Aftermarket brake pads
Brake fade from constant brake use - Higher spec brake fluid + Aftermarket brake pads
Lack of feel/feedback from the lever to forces being exerted - Whole brake system refresh (Remove ABS, new calipers, new master cylinder)
Pulsing feel or uneven feel in lever when braking - Aftermarket brake rotors which won't warp as easily

As for brake calipers, our brake calipers are directly from the Ninja 1000. If you really want to switch them out, anything that fits a newer Ninja 1000 should work. Brembo makes a couple of aftermarket choices.

[Lentz]

Rickifumi, I hear what you're saying but I think the systems pretty much auto correct. If the wheel slips it will cycle the pressure off a bit longer. There has to be some auto correct for different road surfaces, different friction tires, etc. In addition I'm sure there is a safety factor built in as that's what's done for product liability these days.

In my amateur opinion, I don't think the volume makes a lot of difference. How much the master moves the slave is totally dependent on the ratio of surface area, not on the volume of fluid in between. As a real world example, you can put in a longer brake line with no effect and it's done all the time.

I might be a little cautious about changing the calipers if the piston sizes were different but the difference between say a 32mm piston and a 34mm piston is only 12% or so.

All in all though if you can get what you want with the stock calipers and different pads you know you're not messing up anything. All of this being said, I replaced 300 mm Z1000SX discs with 315 mm Sicom discs and replaced the calipers with Brembos. You have to do 2 hard stops from 100 mph to bed in the discs and pads and toward the end of the 2 stops I could feel the ABS cycling on and off.

[Champ87]

First thing would be establishing what you feel is lacking out of the brakes.

Good post kman. I like the way you addressed the "feel" of the brakes. Unless the brakes have overheated and begun to fade, the limit of braking will be determined by tire grip. In most situations H2 SX brakes are more than capable of locking the front wheel - if the ABS didn't intervene. From that we can say the brakes are certainly not lacking stopping power. What they may lack for some is a feeling of power if the initial bite or the amount of lever pressure or the braking progression isn't what they'd like.

[Lentz]

I agree with everything kman said. I would never remove an ABS system from a bike but that's just me because I'm not in the 2-3% that can stop better without ABS in a panic situation. All good advice as to cause and effect. There is an amazing difference in how the brakes feel just from organic to sintered pads for example.

FWIW a couple of basics worth repeating. A smaller master cylinder increases braking force. Don't use DOT 5 fluid in a system designed for DOT 3 or 4. If you're making changes with respect to feel and brake fade, only change one thing at a time.

[biosed]

I took a spin off of an s1000r and s1000xr this week, both bikes brakes felt much stronger, like I would lightly pull the lever and get a lot of braking force.
There was a little fade coming down a mountain but I can live with that as we were pushing and it was hairpin after hairpin.

[Rickifumi]

My '17 Tuono Factory's brakes are also exceptionally good, but it's much lighter and runs stickier tires. 330mm front discs, too. Say, didn't the earlier H2 variants come with three-thirties? You'd think those would be a no-brainer on this bike, maybe the Accounting Department won that skirmish?

On the issue of pad compounds, I need excellent bite and modulation when the brakes are stone cold and nasty surprises happen...errant wildlife rarely gives advance notice! Maximum racetrack performance is less useful for me, if brakes lose some performance when super hot I will slow down accordingly.

Interesting tech article on the recent ABS discussion:
http://www.stoptech.com/technical-suppo ... brake-kits