Anyone else foul out spark plugs?

[Prof J]

I talked to a friend who is a professional tuner about this plug issue. His comment was that no 2 bikes run exactly the same. He has put the same flash on bikes of the same model and year and one ran fine the other rich. His comment was that it is a good idea to check the AFR when you get a bench flash.

PhukDD,

" His comment was that it is a good idea to check the AFR when you get a bench flash."

Exactly. Generated maps on a dyno, which they can be 'specific' (to the area) in nature, may map out differently when thrown on a bike with different conditions, altitude, humidity, temp, tuners preferences.

I agree with your tuner, as do other on-bike dyno tuners I've used at various tuning facilities. If you'er looking for the sweeter 'spot' on tune, get it dialed into your local area (which will also change a bit due to the afore mentioned conditions).

I had four custom tunes for my 14, one for each season. Two were 'on bike' at any given time, one in use, and another as a swap to.

[Prof J]

I talked to a friend who is a professional tuner about this plug issue. His comment was that no 2 bikes run exactly the same. He has put the same flash on bikes of the same model and year and one ran fine the other rich. His comment was that it is a good idea to check the AFR when you get a bench flash.

PhukDD,

" His comment was that it is a good idea to check the AFR when you get a bench flash."

Exactly. Generated maps on a dyno, which they can be 'specific' (to the area) in nature, may map out differently when thrown on a bike with different conditions, altitude, humidity, temp, tuners preferences.

I agree with your tuner, as do other on-bike dyno tuners I've used at various tuning facilities. If you'er looking for the sweeter 'spot' on tune, get it dialed into your local area (which will also change a bit due to the afore mentioned conditions).

I had four custom tunes for my 14, one for each season. Two were 'on bike' at any given time, one in use, and another as a swap to.
[/quote]

[Prof J]

I talked to a friend who is a professional tuner about this plug issue. His comment was that no 2 bikes run exactly the same. He has put the same flash on bikes of the same model and year and one ran fine the other rich. His comment was that it is a good idea to check the AFR when you get a bench flash.

PhukDD,

" His comment was that it is a good idea to check the AFR when you get a bench flash."

Exactly. Generated maps on a dyno, which they can be 'specific' (to the area) in nature, may map out differently when thrown on a bike with different conditions, altitude, humidity, temp, tuners preferences.

I agree with your tuner, as do other on-bike dyno tuners I've used at various tuning facilities. If you'er looking for the sweeter 'spot' on tune, get it dialed into your local area (which will also change a bit due to the afore mentioned conditions).

I had four custom tunes for my 14, one for each season. Two were 'on bike' at any given time, one in use, and another as a swap to.
[/quote]

[PhukDD]

profJ your phone is quote crazy

[Champ87]

Exactly. Generated maps on a dyno, which they can be 'specific' (to the area) in nature, may map out differently when thrown on a bike with different conditions, altitude, humidity, temp, tuners preferences.

Electronic fuel injection systems adjust for air density. That is derived from pressure and temperature using set formulas (based on laws of nature). Those formulas are programmed into the ECU so, if you tune for one set of conditions, the ECU will compensate for changes based on the information from the bike's pressure and temperature sensors.

Of those you mentioned, humidity is the only atmospheric condition the ECU will not fully compensate for. Humidity changes as temperature changes so the ECU will take care of that part, but it does not adjust for moisture content of a given volume of air.

[Prof J]

yes, the editing at this end is frustrating, and the multiple posts/quotes from my posts are driving you all nuts and me too.

I'm hoping with better diligence, and our upcoming internet service, going from a country internet speed of 3-5 mps to fiber soon, will help reduce, as what's sent on my setup does not show timely at the site. So it's either internet lag, and or my mentation lag!

[Bryan468]

Well yesterday I installed the new plugs and started the bike and it did the same thing so I guess the stock plugs are still good! Ended up being and issue with how I had the blow off valve set up.

This whole time I have been bypassing the electronic blow off valve solenoid (air switching valve) while testing the tial bov so I wanted to try using it and see how it worked. Never would have guessed it would cause any problems with idle or afr.

[Prof J]

Your discovery is good news.

[Prof J]

Exactly. Generated maps on a dyno, which they can be 'specific' (to the area) in nature, may map out differently when thrown on a bike with different conditions, altitude, humidity, temp, tuners preferences.

Electronic fuel injection systems adjust for air density. That is derived from pressure and temperature using set formulas (based on laws of nature). Those formulas are programmed into the ECU so, if you tune for one set of conditions, the ECU will compensate for changes based on the information from the bike's pressure and temperature sensors.

Of those you mentioned, humidity is the only atmospheric condition the ECU will not fully compensate for. Humidity changes as temperature changes so the ECU will take care of that part, but it does not adjust for moisture content of a given volume of air.

Champ87

Here's my thoughts and experiences about the idea of " humidity is the only atmospheric condition the ECU will not fully compensate for"

From the tunes I've seen done, from the dyno files (graph outcomes with the bikes setups, before and after mods) I've been given to collate data (several hundred), and from the hundreds of custom tunes I've had done testing out things, the ability of the bikes ECU/computer to adjust for changes, is limited, very limited.

We can take a look at common areas of possible environmental and or mechanical change one can do for or to a motorcycle (this list is not meant to be all inclusive):

- air charge, by mechanical change, different intake and or exhaust setup, e.g. headers, cans, different air filter - less or more flowing, etc

- air density, altitude, humidity effects, outside air temperature affecting IAT's contribution to mass air calculations for fueling changes, etc

As example, if someone changes from an OEM air filter, to one having only slightly better flow, I had initially hoped the bikes system would figure it out, but they don't . . even for small air charge gains of 3-5 HP, the bikes MAP, with or without IAT contribution, don't adjust well at all. Exchange the headers, normally a bit bigger change to the system and a little bit more free flow air filter, or pipes, the same, and these are not dramatic air charge changes. So on the mild side of mechanical and or environmental changes, the bikes don't have the native range to adequately change to maximize. For moderate, or larger changes, the bike will also not adequately modify what it 'needs' to do, that a tune can accomplish.

The MAP, IAT are part of the process to 'calculate' appropriate air mass flow/volume and fuel adjustment . . but their ability on consumer bikes, as exampled above, are very limited. I don't know about racing ECU sophistication.

If the various systems were capable of adjusting for increase air charge, humidity, altitude, air temps, etc, even for small changes to the bikes intake or exhaust, we wouldn't need to remap. The same applies to bike owners who live near the beach, and the bike feels great. Get into the high desert, and those bikes are a bit more flat (too rich). Change the environmental temps, this area generally has less effect on the bikes performance, but change the temps moderately to significantly, and the bike will be 'flat', beach temps of 70-80's F v 100-120F.

I suspect the H2 series bikes are similar, from what I hear of folks results/dyno results.

I've been to group dyno tunes where the owners were convinced their bikes would have great numbers, compared to others, who had the same, or different mods, but they were, for the dyno runs, in a different state, or other notable environmental change, altitude, lets say, and their bikes were flat, until they tuned to the circumstance/environment/altitude, etc. Some of those folks thought the dyno was rigged, and a some of those folks were very upset.

I've heard and read a lot of bike owners comments, with something like "I changed out my air filter to a higher flow filter, and my butt dyno can feel the extra HP/power, etc" . . .

When I've had the chance to ride their bikes, they were flat, as compared to before the mod. Once on the dyno's, they saw a loss from their 'before' runs. Once they remapped, they got the bit of HP tuned to the new mod, but not without a tune. That is similar with atmospheric changes, though generally atmospheric changes do not cause large changes to a bikes performance. Bike systems are designed to operate in a confined, safe and 'basic' range, thus the popularity of tuned maps and associated equipment.

So the above are the things for me, which makes me feel that bikes systems just can not compensate for much of anything, except about regular 'riding about town' (figure of speech), in the given power/performance the manufacturer wished and dialed into the bike, which is often not only tuned down, but by design, also has 'limits' of performance of the bikes system.

And they don't want their systems to function, on their own, to 'adjust' or fully compensate for the above, which would then maximize the bikes performance, otherwise we wouldn't need tuning equipment to (against the company's fine print) modify the system to get better performance.

That's how I currently see it. I always stand to be corrected and hope to learn.

[Champ87]

ProfJ - you are mixing up changes to the bike with changes in atmospheric conditions. Why argue that the bike won't adjust for a different filter when that's not what I said? Sure, when we modify the bike we need to adjust the tune to optimize for that change. That's not what I'm talking about. You made a statement earlier that you used to have four custom tunes, "one for each season". I'm saying that's unnecessary. The ECU adjusts for temperature and pressure. It doesn't adjust for humidity but your 4 seasonal tunes won't help with that either, unless you have some way to accurately determine humidity each time you ride.

You feel the system "can not compensate for much of anything". You're entitled to an opinion but if that's based on the fact that the electronics didn't adjust for a new filter then you're going to end up with misguided opinions. Of course, it didn't adjust. At larger throttle openings the EFI systems on our bikes adjust fueling based on throttle opening so how do you expect it to adjust for altered flow of a filter? A filter or exhaust is not an atmospheric condition so putting those into the discussion is blowing smoke over it.

As I said earlier, EFI systems are programmed to adjust for air density and, in my experience, they handle that well. Gone are the days where you needed to make jetting changes for changes in altitude. Modern EFI systems take care of that. If you go from low altitude to high latitude you will feel a difference in power. That's because air density has changed. The EFI will detect the lower air density and reduce fuel to maintain AFR with the result that you have less power. Most of us have seen this in dyno results where the same setup on the same bike on the same dyno can give different results on different days. It’s air density - that changes with temperature and pressure. The tuner doesn’t remap for that – he takes that as his baseline and works from there to adjust fueling/ignition for the mechanical changes he’s making.

I’ve ridden up Pikes Peak and Mount Evans in Colorado - both over 14,000’. At the higher altitude the bike ran fine and started no problem, but it felt a little flat simply because, in less dense air, it was making less power for any given amount of throttle. In theory the reduction in power at altitude should be less with a Supercharged motor but I have no experience to compare my SE at different altitudes.

I stand by my statement that you don’t need to adjust for atmospheric conditions. The EFI system takes care of it well enough that any improvements you can make through mapping will be minimal and it’s just not practical to run a different map because humidity jumped.

You say “I always stand to be corrected and hope to learn”. Me too. I’m not trying to win points in a right or wrong argument – just sharing what I know and think. The stuff I’m saying about air density comes from pilot study. Air density is a major factor in aircraft performance, so pilots need to understand how to calculate it from temperature and pressure. That knowledge is helpful when learning about EFI systems.

This theorizing is good brain food but the practical application is much simpler. You find a good tuner, have them setup your bike then go ride. All of a sudden that last ¼ horsepower you lost on a humid day won’t matter. That’s soul food!